NWC youth 16-18 withdraw from BARLA

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Re: NWC youth 16-18 withdraw from BARLA

Post by pandasdad on Tue Jan 27, 2009 6:41 pm

Strange as it meant seem but the only reason this thread is here and was started was because NWC 16-18 left BARLA.
So how can it stop if NWC decide whether they want to stay or go !!

The reason this thread is here is because either Lee, as administrator, or the Board of Management, chose to have NWC 16s to 18s resignation posted - it's the first post!! Posssibly somebody thought that BARLA might get some sympathy. Tough luck!

When is somebody from the Board of Management going to address this subject? Either on here, or face to face with the people concerned at NWC?

The fact that the issue has gone on now for three years or so is bad enough, but it has become very public over the last two weeks and every day that goes by, weakens the influence of BARLA.

Wake up and smell the coffee, Spen. We in the NWC don't wear helmets with horns any more!

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Re: NWC youth 16-18 withdraw from BARLA

Post by Sam Armstrong on Wed Jan 28, 2009 1:36 am

Paul Stephenson wrote:Sam, are you able to share with us here the letter which NWC wrote to BARLA which has the (was it 12?) points that remain unanswered?
Paul, if I can find them I will be more than happy to do so, frankly it has been that long since I presented the case to the Board and so much water has passed under the bridge that I am no longer sure whether it was a hand written set of questions which I passed on to the Secretary so that they could, at Spen's request, look into the issues raised in more depth or whether I actually typed it (which I usually do).

I do hope it was the latter and I will try to find them tonight when I get home.

Hopefully they are on my pc. as unfortunately I lost a full hard disk of information from my laptop when it decided to format my hard drive about 18 months ago but, fortunately, I do think (fingers crossed) that the meeting took place before I had the laptop.

There was nothing particularly inflammatory in the questions and, in fairness when I presented them to the Board, I seemed to get a fair hearing, a relatively positive response, assurances that they'd be looked into and a promise that a formal reply would be issued - sadly this final part never happened.

One important point to make, these were not solely NW Counties questions but rather a collected set of general questions raised following a meeting at Hopwood Hall of Youth/Junior regional leagues expressing our concerns for the future of the youth/junior game.
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Re: NWC youth 16-18 withdraw from BARLA

Post by Paul Stephenson on Wed Jan 28, 2009 3:33 am

once a ref wrote:How many Administrators are there on this Forum? affraid

Many hands make light work Laughing
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Re: NWC youth 16-18 withdraw from BARLA

Post by Paul Stephenson on Wed Jan 28, 2009 3:40 am

Thanks Sam.
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Re: NWC youth 16-18 withdraw from BARLA

Post by caldwellowl on Wed Jan 28, 2009 9:38 am

Nice to see the BARLA has met the recent resignation by NWC 16 – 18 well.



Just read the rant on the BARLA’s website and that’s exactly what it comes across as ….a rant.



How can airing your dirty washing out possibly solve the issues raised by Junior Clubs up and down the country on how you are not supporting their issues and problems,



The recent fiasco about the Rugby Blades only shows how out of touch and unorganised the BARLA is.

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Re: NWC youth 16-18 withdraw from BARLA

Post by Sam Armstrong on Thu Jan 29, 2009 7:07 am

Paul Stephenson wrote:Sam, are you able to share with us here the letter which NWC wrote to BARLA which has the (was it 12?) points that remain unanswered?
Paul, I searched high and low on my pc and laptop last night for the original of the document to no avail, however, I was informed last night that Spen still has a copy and has kindly offered to supply us or, I should imagine yourself, with a copy should we/yourself so need.

I did however come across my letter to the BARLA Secretary dated 4th January 2007 where we offered to pay our affiliation fee, in full, along with the supporting cheque which was subsequently returned to us.

The document, which is available to download by clicking the bold highlighted link from the Stationery page of the NWC 13-15's website, is titled "Letter to BARLA re: Affiliation Fees Jan 2007".

It will hopefully let everyone see exactly what our stance was regarding the fee!
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Re: NWC youth 16-18 withdraw from BARLA

Post by Paul Stephenson on Thu Jan 29, 2009 12:30 pm

I've not read your letter but I suppose speaking as an ex club treasurer (and not as an administrator of this board) things like annual fees etc I would have expected to know when to pay and would personally have paid without an invoice if it was organisation membership and probably chased it up afterwards.

I used to tell my committee what I estimated we would have to spend next month at our meetings and of course much of this projection would often be based on what we did the previous year.

That said I know plenty of others who would not pay without an invoice (or chase one up) and would never know what bill was coming from one day to the next.

Each to their own I suppose (and all degrees inbetween) and I guess what makes life so interesting.
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Re: NWC youth 16-18 withdraw from BARLA

Post by once a ref on Thu Jan 29, 2009 1:26 pm

You wouldn't last long as treasurer in most organisations with that casual attitude; the fact that your post infers that NWC could have made a better effort to pay (without invoice) confirms the fact that the forum administrators are simply spokemen for the shadowy Lord Lucan clones on the Board.

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Re: NWC youth 16-18 withdraw from BARLA

Post by Paul Stephenson on Fri Jan 30, 2009 12:46 am

As I said we all have our opinions, but how you can accurately judge my character and ability to do a role at a club is beyond me.

To suggest I've somehow indicated the NWC board could have done more from my post again I find strange, I was merely indicating how I personally might have handled a hyperthetical situation and indeed I stated I know many more who would not have done it my way and indicated that people are different and in varying degrees.

You could say I have suggested the NWC treasurer could have done more and probably the fact that it would have been possible to pay in September based on last years dealings means in theory he or she could have (can't we all do more in most situations) - but as I said we all have our own ways of working and those include working practices.

From a Rugby League point of view I am an elected committee member of a Playing Regions Governing Body (not BARLA) and that regions elected Service Area Representative (elected by its clubs by the way) and I attend the same meetings Sam does every couple of months with other leagues and the RFL. We have our difference on subjects but I'd like to think we have agreement in many more.

So please don't infer I am "a spokemen for the shadowy Lord Lucan clones of the baord" - I was asked to help on this forum as I have 25+ years experience in the IT industry where I still work today, nothing more sinister than that.
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Re: NWC youth 16-18 withdraw from BARLA

Post by Sam Armstrong on Fri Jan 30, 2009 12:52 am

Just to clarify, I was new to the Secretay's position as was our current Treasurer as our previous Secretary/Treasurer left with all paperwork which, we were subsequently informed, was all destroyed when her house was flooded. Basically, from that point the League had to start relatively from scratch but fortunately, since then, we have managed to go from strength to strength so ultimately it was a blessing in disguise although it certainly didn't seem that way at the time, but it did mean all our "history" was lost.

As for paying a bill blindly .... c'mon Paul if you don't get your electricity bill through the post, although you may have put aside the funds, you aren't telling me that you just send them a random figure payment anyway!!!! Suspect
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Re: NWC youth 16-18 withdraw from BARLA

Post by Paul Stephenson on Fri Jan 30, 2009 1:13 am

lol actually I do just that Sam, I have a monthly standing order that pays the same amount (ok not random) every month so I vary between being in credit (summer) to being about just right (winter).

Joking apart I do know what you are saying though and no I would not have paid the clubhouse electric bill - but my governing body membship fee I probably would have as I know it needs paying and what it would be.

I know in recent years we have found ourselves over in Hull in the same position (i.e. no membership bill) but we chased it up and all was resolved (I'm not the treasurer so I don't know how).

However that said, if you had lost your history I'm not suprised by the situation you found yourself in. When I took over as club treasurer we had no history other than some books in of course date order, so my wife (a credit controller by trade but as you know now Secretary of the League) made a great job of itemising all the months over about 5 years and I had some great reports to work from (made life much easier).

I'm saddened by what has befallen our game at our level, but as I keep saying each to their own though I am very interested in how it all happened as I would not want to get into that situation myself.

Sadly when these things happen looking in from out here it always seems that opportunites are missed by all sides though at the time when passions are still high and people are still emotive its not always clear just what those opportunities were ior even still are.
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Re: NWC youth 16-18 withdraw from BARLA

Post by once a ref on Fri Jan 30, 2009 2:07 am

Paul, I am not doubting your character and accept your points but I am strugging with the fact as time passes various Admin persons including your good self are weighing in with explanations/reasons on behalf of BARLA. Is it not well past the time when there should have been an official response; even a simple "we are looking into it"?

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Re: NWC youth 16-18 withdraw from BARLA

Post by Paul Stephenson on Fri Jan 30, 2009 2:18 am

once a ref wrote:Paul, I am not doubting your character and accept your points but I am strugging with the fact as time passes various Admin persons including your good self are weighing in with explanations/reasons on behalf of BARLA. Is it not well past the time when there should have been an official response; even a simple "we are looking into it"?

PLEASE!!!!!!!!!!!!

I'm not writing on behalf of BARLA - you seem to be confusing my ADMIN role here with a spokesperson's role for BARLA and that is an incorrect assumption. I am not a BARLA spokesperson.

Even my question said "speaking as a former treasurer and not as as an administrator".
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Re: NWC youth 16-18 withdraw from BARLA

Post by samsung on Fri Jan 30, 2009 11:20 am

once a ref wrote:You wouldn't last long as treasurer in most organisations with that casual attitude; the fact that your post infers that NWC could have made a better effort to pay (without invoice) confirms the fact that the forum administrators are simply spokemen for the shadowy Lord Lucan clones on the Board.

Don't be smart Ref. I was at the NWC 8-12s meeting when the whole "forgot to pay the invoice/was on holiday/my dog was sick/lost in post" debacle was discussed at great length with the clubs involved. All the excuses in the world wouldn't have convinced me that it was an actual mistake the fee went unpaid.

Believe me, if a club had "forgot" to pay (for whatever reason) their League Fees, they would have soon had their fixtures suspended. If, after that punishment, they still didn't pay, then almost without exception they would have been expelled from the League. What's the difference with the BARLA stance?

What actually irritates the hell out of me is that the NWC leagues had no less than FOUR votes at BARLA meetings (8-12s, 13-15s, 16-18s and Open Age). Couple that with their collective District League votes (St. Helens, Oldham, Rochdale, Widnes, Manchester, Wigan, Warrington for example) and they actually could have affected how the voting went on important matters affecting youth and junior rugby.

I'm tired of hearing how many more youth/junior teams there are compared to open age. How many of these youth/junior teams are attached to an open age club? Do you imagine that these youth/junior teams that are attached to an open age club (like St. Pats, Blackbrook, St. Judes, Leigh East, Leigh Miners et al) mean nothing to that club? Don't you think that the whole youth and junior game at these big clubs are their lifeblood, and are respected and looked after by their management committees, coaches, sponsors and all the many volunteers involved.

Youth League personnel that are whingeing on and on about these dreadful Open Age people - ought to realise that they have bigger problems that they should be addressing.

We are losing players and teams at ALL age levels. We're on a slippery slope and, we need a strong management - at club and league level - to keep us going. Changes need to be made to our registration systems, administration, playing leagues, rules and much more! And they need to be made soon.

NWC Youth and Junior Leagues personnel are too busy fighting BARLA at the moment. They should concentrate on keeping our youth and junior game ALIVE! And they can do that at League level - whether or not they are in BARLA.

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Re: NWC youth 16-18 withdraw from BARLA

Post by mary.poppins on Fri Jan 30, 2009 12:59 pm

I do know that I sent a cheque off and it was returned uncashed by BARLA. something that wouldn't happen at NWC. Also if a club forgot to pay at 13-15's the one thing the teams / clubs do get is a large number of reminders. Their fixtures no doubt would be suspended /conceded until the debt was paid.


Don't be smart Ref. I was at the NWC 8-12s meeting when the whole "forgot to pay the invoice/was on holiday/my dog was sick/lost in post" debacle was discussed at great length with the clubs involved. All the excuses in the world wouldn't have convinced me that it was an actual mistake the fee went unpaid.

Believe me, if a club had "forgot" to pay (for whatever reason) their League Fees, they would have soon had their fixtures suspended. If, after that punishment, they still didn't pay, then almost without exception they would have been expelled from the League. What's the difference with the BARLA stance?


What actually irritates the hell out of me is that the NWC leagues had no less than FOUR votes at BARLA meetings (8-12s, 13-15s, 16-18s and Open Age). Couple that with their collective District League votes (St. Helens, Oldham, Rochdale, Widnes, Manchester, Wigan, Warrington for example) and they actually could have affected how the voting went on important matters affecting youth and junior rugby.

I'm tired of hearing how many more youth/junior teams there are compared to open age. How many of these youth/junior teams are attached to an open age club? Do you imagine that these youth/junior teams that are attached to an open age club (like St. Pats, Blackbrook, St. Judes, Leigh East, Leigh Miners et al) mean nothing to that club? Don't you think that the whole youth and junior game at these big clubs are their lifeblood, and are respected and looked after by their management committees, coaches, sponsors and all the many volunteers involved.

Youth League personnel that are whingeing on and on about these dreadful Open Age people - ought to realise that they have bigger problems that they should be addressing.

We are losing players and teams at ALL age levels. We're on a slippery slope and, we need a strong management - at club and league level - to keep us going. Changes need to be made to our registration systems, administration, playing leagues, rules and much more! And they need to be made soon.

NWC Youth and Junior Leagues personnel are too busy fighting BARLA at the moment. They should concentrate on keeping our youth and junior game ALIVE! And they can do that at League level - whether or not they are in BARLA.

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Re: NWC youth 16-18 withdraw from BARLA

Post by DiDeDi on Thu Feb 12, 2009 9:09 am

It should be an interesting meeting next Wednesday when all the clubs attend are told that the management decided that it was in the best interests of the league and clubs that they come out of BARLA completely and that their league now belongs to the RFL after all these years and will have to abide by any ecision made by them.

Sounds to me like those foreign workers coming into the country and takling up jobs in this country

Especially when the majority of the clubs thought that they had voted to be associate members of BARLA and continue that way

You would think that the large majority of people from the clubs will do something about it and stand up for themselves and let the management know what they want or have the same proposals put them which were put to the 13-15 league and that the vote be done secretly instead a show of hands for something so serious as the decision that the management took.

There may be people attending who feel intimidated about putting their hands up to vote against members of the management committee and their supporters if the previous vote to be members or associate members is anything to go by

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Re: NWC youth 16-18 withdraw from BARLA

Post by Sam Armstrong on Thu Feb 12, 2009 9:26 am

DiDeDi wrote:It should be an interesting meeting next Wednesday when all the clubs attend are told that the management decided that it was in the best interests of the league and clubs that they come out of BARLA completely and that their league now belongs to the RFL after all these years and will have to abide by any ecision made by them.

It was last night ... not "next Wednesday"!!! And yes, it will be interesting but I honestly think (I wasn't at the meeting last night btw so this is supposition) that the general consensus will still be that BARLA is not where the League/Competition wishes to be.

As for voting, yes we at the 13-15's maybe do do it better/different than some but either way a vote is taken .... I note you do not equally seem to think that the BARLA voting system is flawed as that, like the NW Counties 16-18's, does not allow anonymity or that there ..

DiDeDi wrote:... may be people attending who feel intimidated about putting their hands up to vote against members of the management committee and their supporters ..
.

Hmmmm Rolling Eyes
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Re: NWC youth 16-18 withdraw from BARLA

Post by DiDeDi on Thu Feb 12, 2009 9:45 am

I thought that the 16-18s had their meeting on the third Wednesday of the month but I will bow to your local knowledge

Fair play on your last point, I know that is how it is done at the AGM and perhaps that is way foward a secret vote as happens with yourself.

I know that as an associate member you do not have a vote at a Youth & Junior Concil Meeting but are allowed to have a say, would it be a good idea for you to bring this up should you attend the next one.

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Re: NWC youth 16-18 withdraw from BARLA

Post by Marauder on Thu Feb 12, 2009 10:11 am

I’m personally at a loss to why leagues junior or open-age have a gripe with BARLA, hasn’t the structure and guidelines that the Association use been in place for years. It’s notable that all the disruption seems to have started over the last 10 years, is this BARLA’s fault our is there a hidden agenda coming out of Red Hall ?. If every team within BARLA went to the RFL it would not be able to afford all the little giveaway’s that it is using to entice the vulnerable and short sighted. If the NW Juniors did move towards the RFL what more benefits will they get from the RFL ? An example : RLC clubs used to get £750 per season - As the RLC grew the money went down, last season the clubs received ZILCH. I always though that after using BARLA guidelines each individual leagues can basically bring in and take out any of their own by-laws, so can anyone tell me the real reason why all the griping.

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More than One Face

Post by Swordfish on Thu Feb 12, 2009 10:44 am

It is interesting that when one of the secretaries at the NWC open age meeting last Monday asked the management if they had discussed the League Partnership document, a certain Hilary Steel said that BARLA had asked leagues and clubs not to discuss it until consultation between them and the management team would respect that request. Then on the RFL website you find that certain junior league(s) have signed the document.

So a club could end up with some of its junior sides being in BARLA, some with the RFL, its second team with BARLA (NWC) and its first team with the RFL (NCL). So much for unity and progress. Or is it the old Roman addage "Devide and conquere" perhaps only MrLewis can answer that one!

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Re: NWC youth 16-18 withdraw from BARLA

Post by DiDeDi on Fri Feb 13, 2009 7:28 am

Swordfish,
No doubt the person you refer to when giving that eply would say that that issue is an Open Age message a(NWC Open Age) and 16-18s is an Y & J Issue. and nothing to do with that meeting.
If my understanding is right if the NWC Open Age clubs all bravely stand together (are you listening Terry at Saddleworth to the rest of your committee) and the clubs vote and recommend that they stay full members of BARLA and all the clubs refuse to sign up to the agreement the battle is still there to be worn.
What it wants when that happens if for the Secreatary and not the Chair of that league to send out Press Releases out to all its clubs to the RFL and to the Tradfe Press and also to send them into the readers letters of both publications.

The power of the pen is mightier than the sword

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Re: NWC youth 16-18 withdraw from BARLA

Post by mick doyle on Fri Feb 13, 2009 11:30 am

DiDeDi wrote:I thought that the 16-18s had their meeting on the third Wednesday of the month but I will bow to your local knowledge

Fair play on your last point, I know that is how it is done at the AGM and perhaps that is way foward a secret vote as happens with yourself.

I know that as an associate member you do not have a vote at a Youth & Junior Concil Meeting but are allowed to have a say, would it be a good idea for you to bring this up should you attend the next one.

At the SGM in september 2008 ,BARLA VOTED and removed the right for associate members to even attend meetings.
The BARLA constitution has still not been ammended to reflect the outcome of that meeting any reason why Question
Another question for you ,would you spend 30-40 hours a week voluntry ,work full time then travel from lancashire to Shaw Cross on a mid-week night just to attend a meeting and not have a vote Question

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Re: NWC youth 16-18 withdraw from BARLA

Post by Sam Armstrong on Sun Feb 15, 2009 2:19 am

DiDeDi wrote:I know that as an associate member you do not have a vote at a Youth & Junior Council Meeting but are allowed to have a say, would it be a good idea for you to bring this up should you attend the next one.
Are you not being kept up to speed DiDeDi? If you know a Board Member maybe he can fill in the gaps for you ... scratch

If not, I'll do it for you. At the September SGM meeting, it was voted to bar Associate Members from receiving any BARLA correspondence ... mind you we never received anything from the Secretary as it was which is why were downgraded from Full membership anyway!!! (hmmmm... maybe he was just taking the "secret" portion of his job title too literally??) ... anyway, we also had the right to attend Youth & Junior Council Meetings rescinded so, now being aware of those two facts, please explain how and where we can "have our say"?

BTW ... how are those BARLA Youth & Junior Council Meetings going nowadays without approximately one half of the former attendees?? Still the same old arguments? Sovereignty? Non-use of the BARLA name in the Halifax Youth League? GARLA/WARLA's monthly update on how the girls & women who want to be outside the RFL's festivals are being hard done to? Or have the meetings just simply fizzled out altogether? No

I think that the Regional Leagues are currently being far better serviced anyway by the RFL's Youth & Junior Congress which is structured, has a far greater attendance, seems altogether more pro-active and includes all those leagues & regions who currently BARLA choose not to listen to!! I also think, that with West Cumbria's move to potential Associate membership, that there will only be two "Full" BARLA Youth & Junior Leagues out of all the regular attendees, however, even though they'll be in the minority they are treated with equality as it is a positive forum where issues affecting the future of the youth & junior game are put above petty politics by like-minded individuals directly involved in the day-to-day running of these age-groups.

Dennis Flaherty, BARLA Board Youth & Junior Representative attended, was made to feel very welcome (and why shouldn't he be?), his input was greatly appreciated and I'm sure found the evening a positive step forward.

I also believe that Yorkshire Youth were invited but, to date, are the only youth/junior League not to have come to the table as far as I can see .. are their clubs and players not missing out by their representatives seemingly boycotting this useful bit of networking with their colleagues?? Sorry but that attitude simply doesn't make sense to me and if they were my Reps I'd be asking how their actions/non-attendance benefit my clubs? scratch
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