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NWC youth 16-18 withdraw from BARLA

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Paul Stephenson
Broken Nose
mary.poppins
clowesey
mick doyle
Lancs
mentor
once a ref
pandasdad
Big Bad Bri
Steve Manning
samsung
Sam Armstrong
Lee Marchant
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Post by Big Bad Bri Sat Jan 24, 2009 1:27 pm

I agree with most of what stivey has said.

If you have a problem
with the organisation the best thing to do is to change it from the
inside out. If you are right and they are wrong, you will get the
support from many other members, not just the NWC,

seems to me
that the NWC is the only one that has these massive problems with
BARLA, (well when I say NWC, I mean the dictatorship that runs it) and
this stems back from 2-3 year old pettiness on both sides, and it
appears from the statement in the news section, that this was caused
because NWC didn't pay the £50 or so it costs to be a full member on
time. .

If BARLA are guilty of not having the interests of the
kids ahead of personal agendas then the same can be aimed at those who
run the NWC. I know a lot of the clubs are very unhappy with the way
the vote was handled to pull another league away from the BARLA
umbrella and it seems as Stivey has said that no one has really thought
this through.

They won't be able to enter the BARLA cups, nor represent BARLA.

How much extra is the insurance giong to cost with just a handfull of teams making up the policy? quite a lot more I'd imagine

I'm not happy with the decision, and honestly think if change is needed at
BARLA, it also needs to be made at the head of the NWC, and I'm not the
only one thinking that.

This forum has been set up to help aid communication with BARLA, and it's an interesting idea, which may work or may faill

All I've seen so far is the few usual suspects from the NWC league bleating
on and making a nuiscense of themselves, first of all demanding answers
that a simple phonecall could have dealt with, and now turning on the
guy running the site, because the answers have been given and them not
liking what they hear.

Pathetic, and I'm embarrased that my club plays under these clowns. Why are you so determined to take over this website when you don't want anything to do with BARLA anyway?

fair play to BARLA, for trying to make an effort with a website like this,
and those that are trying to kill it before it has chance to get off
the ground should be ashamed of themselves, if (as they say) they have
the best interest of the game and kids at heart.

Bri.

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Post by Guest Sat Jan 24, 2009 1:42 pm

Sam Armstrong wrote:Stivey, I have answered every single one of your points in depth on an individual basis yet, for reasons unknown, even after my doing so you still seem unconvinced. Well, now it's your turn ... please tell me why you think staying in BARLA will be beneficial to our League and it's players and in the best interests of the game as a whole?

Please try to be as honest and open as I have endeavoured to be with you.

Sam I just typed a long and detailed answer and was timed out and lost it - since then the message above has arrived so I'll wait for an answer to that one (if any are forthcoming) and answer your questions tomorrow after watching the lads, taking the phone calls, emailing the newspapers, updating the league tables, updating the websites etc etc etc as we all do each week.

Guest
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Post by Sam Armstrong Sat Jan 24, 2009 2:35 pm

Big Bad Bri wrote:I agree with most of what stivey has said.
Fair enough, you have every right to do so.

Big Bad Bri wrote:If you have a problem with the organisation the best thing to do is to change it from the inside out.
How are we supposed to do this when we receive no correspondence, no replies to our letters and are no longer able to represent our players at BARLA Youth/Junior meetings??

Big Bad Bri wrote:If you are right and they are wrong, you will get the support from many other members, not just the NWC.
There are several supporting our decision and who may, quite possibly dependant on how things pan out, decide to follow. Don't forget Yorkshire Juniors coped perfectly well without being members of BARLA.

Big Bad Bri wrote:seems to me that the NWC is the only one that has these massive problems with BARLA
Are we? Why did, as I mentioned above, Yorkshire Juniors remain outside for so long? Yes the "massive problems" affecting the 8-12's and ourselves are down to the lies and incompetence regarding fees - payment of which was never ever an issue with either League and was offered by both as soon as we became aware but was declined by BARLA.

Big Bad Bri wrote:... well when I say NWC, I mean the dictatorship that runs it....
If you are unhappy with any members of any of Leagues' Committees then you are well within your rights to stand against them at every AGM.

Big Bad Bri wrote:and this stems back from 2-3 year old pettiness on both sides, and it appears from the statement in the news section, that this was caused because NWC didn't pay the £50 or so it costs to be a full member on
time. .
Er yes, but as I keep repeating but you seem to constantly seem to ignore, we received no invoices or any other documentation prior to being notified our membership was being "downgraded" ... as soon as we became aware the money was sent at the earliest possible opportunity ... is this us being "petty" in your books?

Big Bad Bri wrote:If BARLA are guilty of not having the interests of the kids ahead of personal agendas then the same can be aimed at those who run the NWC.
Have the courage of your convictions man and give us examples of where you believe any members of our Committees at any age-group have "personal agendas"?

Big Bad Bri wrote:I know a lot of the clubs are very unhappy with the way
the vote was handled to pull another league away from the BARLA umbrella and it seems as Stivey has said that no one has really thought this through.
The opportunity to vote by the 16-18's was given to everyone present and, I believe it had been discussed numerous times by the floor. The 13-15's will have the opportunity to vote at our next monthly meeting and again have been kept fully informed of our dealings and responses (or lack of them) by the BARLA Board.

Big Bad Bri wrote:They won't be able to enter the BARLA cups, nor represent BARLA.
You are clearly not as well informed as you believe you are Sir, they CAN enter the BARLA National Cups via their District League (contrary to what was initially stated in front of a packed 16-18's Meeting by the Chair & Youth Chair), the Lancashire Cup is now being run by the three x NW Counties Leagues (and will be, by far, the biggest ever day the competition has seen when our Finals are staged this year) and there is no BARLA "representative" rugby for U18's!!!

Big Bad Bri wrote:How much extra is the insurance giong to cost with just a handfull of teams making up the policy? quite a lot more I'd imagine
The Clubs themselves will not be leaving BARLA, just the fixture organising League, so they will remain insured by BARLA or do BARLA intend to remove the insurance of nearly every club in the North West if the fixture organising Leagues leave???

Big Bad Bri wrote:I'm not happy with the decision, and honestly think if change is needed at BARLA, it also needs to be made at the head of the NWC, and I'm not the only one thinking that.
Please refer to my previous answer to your earlier point and we look forward to you stepping out from behind the anonimity of your nom de plume and "putting your money where your mouth is" by standing for any of the Chair/Secretary or any other position. Was it not yourself who stated at the beginning of your missive ..
Big Bad Bri wrote:If you have a problem with the organisation the best thing to do is to change it from the inside out.
Have you already, within half a page, changed your mind?? Rolling Eyes

Big Bad Bri wrote:This forum has been set up to help aid communication with BARLA, and it's an interesting idea, which may work or may fail
At last ... something we agree on!! Yippee!

Big Bad Bri wrote:All I've seen so far is the few usual suspects from the NWC league bleating on and making a nuiscense of themselves ..
As Secretaries and Chairs of our respective Leagues should we just roll over or stand our corner with the facts which you consider to be "making a nuiscense" (your poor spelling .. not mine). If we were to live with the mistruths being spread then we would not be representing our players in the way we should ... or would this be your stance if you were to stand for election???

Big Bad Bri wrote:first of all demanding answers that a simple phonecall could have dealt with ....
Try reading though my previous posts, we DID phone the BARLA Secretary, we did write to the Association, we even raised it before our invite to Youth/Junior meetings was rescinded all of which, and the lack of the Boards' response was highlighted in Pat Crawshaw's resignation letter!

Big Bad Bri wrote:.. and now turning on the guy running the site, because the answers have been given and them not liking what they hear.
I think people were unhappy with the about turn from "I am not BARLA's mouthpiece .." to "BARLA have responded" without saying who this response was attributed to which, as we all know, will be denied as coming from anyone.

Big Bad Bri wrote:Pathetic, and I'm embarrased that my club plays under these clowns.
Sighs ... are your team's unhappy with the competitions we provide or just you? You clearly seem to have personal issues with at least one NW Counties member and now, even though I have had the courtesy to answer every one of your individual points each time, seem to be tarring everyone with the same brush. If you are so unhappy then be brave enough to reveal yourself and your grievances and I'm sure they'll be listened to as I've done by not pretending to be anyone other than myself.

Big Bad Bri wrote:Why are you so determined to take over this website when you don't want anything to do with BARLA anyway?
We have our own very very succesful forums, ours at 13-15's has had well over 14000 posts (6000+ were wiped by our external website administrator, by accident, prior to this season before anyone visits and says there are only around 8000+) in less than 12 months and has over 700 members all free to have their say with no censorship (excepting regarding sexual issues) .... why would we want to take over this? So far this has been, by far, the most active thread ... it would've been a very quiet place without us!!!

Big Bad Bri wrote:fair play to BARLA, for trying to make an effort with a website like this
Here here ... Wow, this is our second agreement!!

Big Bad Bri wrote:and those that are trying to kill it before it has chance to get off the ground should be ashamed of themselves, if (as they say) they have
the best interest of the game and kids at heart.
So, by contributing and not leaving this Forum sitting in silence you believe we are trying to "kill it"? Au contraire mon ami, we are delighted to have the platform to state our case which others may have been misled about or may not have been previously aware of the FACTS involved!!!


Last edited by Sam Armstrong on Sun Jan 25, 2009 2:13 am; edited 4 times in total
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Post by Sam Armstrong Sat Jan 24, 2009 2:40 pm

stivey wrote:Sam I just typed a long and detailed answer and was timed out and lost it - since then the message above has arrived so I'll wait for an answer to that one (if any are forthcoming) and answer your questions tomorrow after watching the lads, taking the phone calls, emailing the newspapers, updating the league tables, updating the websites etc etc etc as we all do each week.
I can empathise with you about losing your post ... this happens to me every time and my frustration at which led to my ticking off for my "less than courteous" post to the Admin (something I did apologise to him for even though the tone of it had been slightly misconstrued). I now copy everything before I try to post and then, when I am annoyingly asked to sign in again, I simply do so and then select "paste" ..,. this, so far seems to work. Wink

I genuinely look forward to your reply, debate always needs two sides and from your last post you sound like you have a similar role to ourselves (whether that be in our region or elsewhere). I hope that by my taking the time to answer your questions as honestly as I can you'll see that this is no power struggle (we all are far too busy to want to take additional positions on as I'm sure you appear to be too) just a desire to get true and fair representation for our players. I, personally, hope never to be Chair of our own, let alone other organisations, but I will fight hand and tooth for those I very passionately represent to the best of my ability.


Last edited by Sam Armstrong on Sun Jan 25, 2009 2:22 am; edited 1 time in total
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Post by Lee Marchant Sat Jan 24, 2009 2:55 pm

Ok, can we calm it down a little please people,

that goes for some on both sides of the divide.

point taken regarding, the comments I've posted on behalf of BARLA, and I will try to make sure I have permission to put a name underneath any statement if the same situation arises.

there was nothing shadowwy(is that a word?) or underhand, I simply didn't ask if it was ok to put the person's name to it, so that was my mistake, and one I'll be careful not to repeat.
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Post by mick doyle Sun Jan 25, 2009 5:18 am

Big Bri ,which of the Nwc OFFICIALS are you labelling as clowns or dictators,the latter i personally find offensive ,I chair a democratic association nothing is done at the 8-12,s without the full backing of its member clubs.
So if you are hurling those insults at me please back them up.
My contact number is 07833131088 or nwc.chair@yahoo.co.uk
if you have any issues you would like to discuss.
All our clubs have at times painstakingly been informed of the current issues within BARLA.
You are more than welcome to attend any of our meetings have an input ,we have nothing to fear or hide from.

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Post by once a ref Mon Jan 26, 2009 5:26 am

Article in League Express today from BARLA's unofficial spokesperson Phil Hodgson who gives it to Ms Steel with both barrels, plenty supposition and innuendo but a bit lacking in fact. He was so pleased with it he repeated it on the next page.

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Post by Sam Armstrong Mon Jan 26, 2009 7:43 am

once a ref wrote:Article in League Express today from BARLA's unofficial spokesperson Phil Hodgson who gives it to Ms Steel with both barrels, plenty supposition and innuendo but a bit lacking in fact.
Reffy, this guy has done more about turns than you see in an average Trooping Of The Colour!!

How can this possibly viewed as an "impartial" perspective when he recently had the role and travelled to Italy to cover the BARLA Great Britain Under 23’s tour as PRO?

For him to refer to "openness" after doing the "spin" for that tour (through somewhat "rose-tinted" glasses) and in relation to the current Board's stance has to be the very pinnacle of hypocrisy!! I dare say if he'd looked at the 16-18's minutes where the vote was taken or even bothered to look through other earlier minutes he'd have seen that the decision HAD been discussed. Typical journalist ... why let facts get in the way of a good story??

By the way Phil, please feel free direct us to where the BARLA minutes are posted on their website unlike the NW Counties which are, at all groups, there for all to see if we are discussing openness !!!
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Post by samsung Mon Jan 26, 2009 9:04 am

At the meeting in September last, the minutes record the voting as 11 for and 4 against. There are no abstentions shown. I don't believe there were only 15 voters present. It still has to be agreed exactly what they were voting for - as clearly some of the clubs thought it was for a different reason than the Chairman of the 16s-18s.

My own club's representative abstained - prefering to discuss things with his club committee first. His vote (and that of how many others?) was not indicated. For all you know, there may have been just as many abstentions than votes in favour. That could certainly have put a different light on the wishes of the clubs.

You can post as many things on here as you wish - but I think it's still going to be the clubs that decide in the end.

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Post by mary.poppins Tue Jan 27, 2009 1:32 am

After reading the league express I find it a bit odd that BARLA then use Hilary to collect their results for the National cup games. Evil or Very Mad
Does anybody at BARLA actually think before speaking or is everything a personal oppinion not the the thoughts of the whole committee.

Trying to keep an open mind here. Still waiting for an answer from stivey seems like you are avoiding answering questions.
<BLOCKQUOTE>stivey wrote:Not really for a couple of reasons.

Again I'd ask was the decision to pull out in the best interests of the game in general.

Your argument that the right to fight has been taken away does not ring wholly true as you could always join as full members again.

Whilst you listed many services RLS provide (some I believe paid for by BARLA and of course the clubs themselevs) you didn't really answer my question as regards to what you GAIN from leaving BARLA as all those services are available to you whether you are in BARLA or not.

Unless of course you have information that these services will be withdrawn from BARLA in due course?

Your comments about working withe some of the "newer" leagues is a credible one and I have some experience personally in running a team in the Midlands Merit League, however being a BARLA member does not stop you working with them anyway - or does it?

I'm trying hard to understand what tangible benefits you have gained by breaking away from BARLA, benefits that are not already available to you regardless of being in BARLA.

</BLOCKQUOTE>


But on the other hand what have the leagues lost by not being members of BARLA.
I openly admit I do not understand everything that is happening but you keep asking the NWC what they have gained from not being with BARLA maybe you can explain to me what they are actually missing from not being members ?


Hope to learn something as I say trying to keep an open mind and decide for myself the rights and wrongs.

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Post by Broken Nose Tue Jan 27, 2009 6:54 am

I just wish that someone in the NWC would make a decision.


Be in BARLA

or

Be out of BARA


Instead of all this underhanded revolt on this forum, why dont you all get together and make a decision.

That way this can stop. Rolling Eyes

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Post by Sam Armstrong Tue Jan 27, 2009 8:28 am

Broken Nose wrote:I just wish that someone in the NWC would make a decision.

Be in BARLA
or
Be out of BARLA

Instead of all this underhanded revolt on this forum, why dont you all get together and make a decision.
That way this can stop. Rolling Eyes
First and foremost there is nothing "underhanded" nor is it a "revolt" we have asked the questions to BARLA several times in several different manners i.e. in writing, in private and in public meetings (before we were stopped from attending or received no correspondence) and still they haven't had the courtesy to supply us with the answers so, there is no underhandedness".

By your use of the word "revolt" you also imply that we are somehow trying to overthrow their authority ... not at all, we are merely highlighting that we are very unhappy with the way things are handled regarding the youth/junior game and that we are in some cases, and would like the opportunity to in others, leave to a platform where we believe our interests would be better represented. We have never ever requested or suggested that the Board be ousted and not that they should be ousted as, it would seem, for the Open Age they are deemed to be doing a good job but as we are not Open Age Leagues we do not think for us they are and so, rather than get involved in any power struggle, we are happy to consider moving.

Personally I wouldn't hesitate for a moment if the decision was solely mine but it isn't. I am part of a democratically elected Committee representing, what we consider to be, the best interests of our players but if those players and their respective clubs vote for us to remain in BARLA so be it. I will still do my utmost to get their views across!!!
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Post by mary.poppins Tue Jan 27, 2009 2:39 pm

Broken Nose wrote:I just wish that someone in the NWC would make a decision.


Be in BARLA

or

Be out of BARA


Instead of all this underhanded revolt on this forum, why dont you all get together and make a decision.

That way this can stop. Rolling Eyes

Strange as it meant seem but the only reason this thread is here and was started was because NWC 16-18 left BARLA.
So how can it stop if NWC decide whether they want to stay or go !! Embarassed

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Post by Paul Stephenson Tue Jan 27, 2009 4:27 pm

Sam, are you able to share with us here the letter which NWC wrote to BARLA which has the (was it 12?) points that remain unanswered?
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Post by once a ref Tue Jan 27, 2009 5:46 pm

How many Administrators are there on this Forum? affraid

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Post by pandasdad Tue Jan 27, 2009 6:41 pm

Strange as it meant seem but the only reason this thread is here and was started was because NWC 16-18 left BARLA.
So how can it stop if NWC decide whether they want to stay or go !!

The reason this thread is here is because either Lee, as administrator, or the Board of Management, chose to have NWC 16s to 18s resignation posted - it's the first post!! Posssibly somebody thought that BARLA might get some sympathy. Tough luck!

When is somebody from the Board of Management going to address this subject? Either on here, or face to face with the people concerned at NWC?

The fact that the issue has gone on now for three years or so is bad enough, but it has become very public over the last two weeks and every day that goes by, weakens the influence of BARLA.

Wake up and smell the coffee, Spen. We in the NWC don't wear helmets with horns any more!

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Post by Sam Armstrong Wed Jan 28, 2009 1:36 am

Paul Stephenson wrote:Sam, are you able to share with us here the letter which NWC wrote to BARLA which has the (was it 12?) points that remain unanswered?
Paul, if I can find them I will be more than happy to do so, frankly it has been that long since I presented the case to the Board and so much water has passed under the bridge that I am no longer sure whether it was a hand written set of questions which I passed on to the Secretary so that they could, at Spen's request, look into the issues raised in more depth or whether I actually typed it (which I usually do).

I do hope it was the latter and I will try to find them tonight when I get home.

Hopefully they are on my pc. as unfortunately I lost a full hard disk of information from my laptop when it decided to format my hard drive about 18 months ago but, fortunately, I do think (fingers crossed) that the meeting took place before I had the laptop.

There was nothing particularly inflammatory in the questions and, in fairness when I presented them to the Board, I seemed to get a fair hearing, a relatively positive response, assurances that they'd be looked into and a promise that a formal reply would be issued - sadly this final part never happened.

One important point to make, these were not solely NW Counties questions but rather a collected set of general questions raised following a meeting at Hopwood Hall of Youth/Junior regional leagues expressing our concerns for the future of the youth/junior game.
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Post by Paul Stephenson Wed Jan 28, 2009 3:33 am

once a ref wrote:How many Administrators are there on this Forum? affraid

Many hands make light work Laughing
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Post by Paul Stephenson Wed Jan 28, 2009 3:40 am

Thanks Sam.
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Post by caldwellowl Wed Jan 28, 2009 9:38 am

Nice to see the BARLA has met the recent resignation by NWC 16 – 18 well.



Just read the rant on the BARLA’s website and that’s exactly what it comes across as ….a rant.



How can airing your dirty washing out possibly solve the issues raised by Junior Clubs up and down the country on how you are not supporting their issues and problems,



The recent fiasco about the Rugby Blades only shows how out of touch and unorganised the BARLA is.

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Post by Sam Armstrong Thu Jan 29, 2009 7:07 am

Paul Stephenson wrote:Sam, are you able to share with us here the letter which NWC wrote to BARLA which has the (was it 12?) points that remain unanswered?
Paul, I searched high and low on my pc and laptop last night for the original of the document to no avail, however, I was informed last night that Spen still has a copy and has kindly offered to supply us or, I should imagine yourself, with a copy should we/yourself so need.

I did however come across my letter to the BARLA Secretary dated 4th January 2007 where we offered to pay our affiliation fee, in full, along with the supporting cheque which was subsequently returned to us.

The document, which is available to download by clicking the bold highlighted link from the Stationery page of the NWC 13-15's website, is titled "Letter to BARLA re: Affiliation Fees Jan 2007".

It will hopefully let everyone see exactly what our stance was regarding the fee!
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Post by Paul Stephenson Thu Jan 29, 2009 12:30 pm

I've not read your letter but I suppose speaking as an ex club treasurer (and not as an administrator of this board) things like annual fees etc I would have expected to know when to pay and would personally have paid without an invoice if it was organisation membership and probably chased it up afterwards.

I used to tell my committee what I estimated we would have to spend next month at our meetings and of course much of this projection would often be based on what we did the previous year.

That said I know plenty of others who would not pay without an invoice (or chase one up) and would never know what bill was coming from one day to the next.

Each to their own I suppose (and all degrees inbetween) and I guess what makes life so interesting.
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Post by once a ref Thu Jan 29, 2009 1:26 pm

You wouldn't last long as treasurer in most organisations with that casual attitude; the fact that your post infers that NWC could have made a better effort to pay (without invoice) confirms the fact that the forum administrators are simply spokemen for the shadowy Lord Lucan clones on the Board.

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NWC youth 16-18 withdraw from BARLA - Page 3 Empty Re: NWC youth 16-18 withdraw from BARLA

Post by Paul Stephenson Fri Jan 30, 2009 12:46 am

As I said we all have our opinions, but how you can accurately judge my character and ability to do a role at a club is beyond me.

To suggest I've somehow indicated the NWC board could have done more from my post again I find strange, I was merely indicating how I personally might have handled a hyperthetical situation and indeed I stated I know many more who would not have done it my way and indicated that people are different and in varying degrees.

You could say I have suggested the NWC treasurer could have done more and probably the fact that it would have been possible to pay in September based on last years dealings means in theory he or she could have (can't we all do more in most situations) - but as I said we all have our own ways of working and those include working practices.

From a Rugby League point of view I am an elected committee member of a Playing Regions Governing Body (not BARLA) and that regions elected Service Area Representative (elected by its clubs by the way) and I attend the same meetings Sam does every couple of months with other leagues and the RFL. We have our difference on subjects but I'd like to think we have agreement in many more.

So please don't infer I am "a spokemen for the shadowy Lord Lucan clones of the baord" - I was asked to help on this forum as I have 25+ years experience in the IT industry where I still work today, nothing more sinister than that.
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NWC youth 16-18 withdraw from BARLA - Page 3 Empty Re: NWC youth 16-18 withdraw from BARLA

Post by Sam Armstrong Fri Jan 30, 2009 12:52 am

Just to clarify, I was new to the Secretay's position as was our current Treasurer as our previous Secretary/Treasurer left with all paperwork which, we were subsequently informed, was all destroyed when her house was flooded. Basically, from that point the League had to start relatively from scratch but fortunately, since then, we have managed to go from strength to strength so ultimately it was a blessing in disguise although it certainly didn't seem that way at the time, but it did mean all our "history" was lost.

As for paying a bill blindly .... c'mon Paul if you don't get your electricity bill through the post, although you may have put aside the funds, you aren't telling me that you just send them a random figure payment anyway!!!! Suspect
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