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NWC youth 16-18 withdraw from BARLA

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Paul Stephenson
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clowesey
mick doyle
Lancs
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Post by pandasdad Tue Jan 20, 2009 10:53 am

Moving to the issue of agreement or otherwise with the decision, I would agree with Sam that the Judes chairman has reacted in an unusual manner, given that the meetings provide some additional revenue for the club, but still further, does that mean that he is withdrawing his teams form the League? I should hope not, but knee jerk reactions should be avoided, because that is the implication.

Furthermore, I note that there is now a statement that the views are his personal views and I am now unclear as to which they are because even that note was from the Chairman of Wigan St Judes!

The requirement for NWC 16s to 18s to convene elsewhere has nevertheless been taken seriously since I have read today that future meetings are to be held at St Pats.

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Post by Lee Marchant Tue Jan 20, 2009 11:21 am

pandasdad wrote:
Even this new forum, which should be recognised as a step forward, seems to ignore the Youth and Junior Leagues in its very layout.


I can comment on this point,

when it was decided how the forum would be set up, there were concerns over u-16 users on an internet message board (which has a private messaging system built in) for obvious reasons.

There will be full coverage of the youth/junior leagues on here, and I haven't settled on the final layout of the forum as yet either.

But I think if we have a forum that is dedicated to youth/junior, it needs to be for the 'grown-ups' who run the teams. In this day where "internet grooming" is all too common, it would be too risky to encourage u-16's to post on such a media, and was a major concern when the idea for the forum was conceived.

Of course, the 'grown ups' who run the teams and who have vetted interests are more than welcome to post on here.

I'm sure you can understand the reasoning behind this.
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Post by once a ref Tue Jan 20, 2009 11:47 am

Mr Manning, as an experienced "PRO & Media Manager" you should know better than post a personal E-Mail on an open Forum. If the unhappy St Judes rep (unhappy because he lost a vote?) had wished his comment made available to the public then surely he would have brought it to our attention. Most people who spit their dummies out like to do it in secret, you have removed the courtesy. Good PRO what?
His Club will be delighted with the washing now on the line.

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Post by Lee Marchant Tue Jan 20, 2009 11:50 am

once a ref wrote:Mr Manning, as an experienced "PRO & Media Manager" you should know better than post a personal E-Mail on an open Forum. If the unhappy St Judes rep (unhappy because he lost a vote?) had wished his comment made available to the public then surely he would have brought it to our attention. Most people who spit their dummies out like to do it in secret, you have removed the courtesy. Good PRO what?
His Club will be delighted with the washing now on the line.

I would assume it was posted with permission.
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Post by mentor Tue Jan 20, 2009 2:27 pm

Would anyone like to give some clear reasons why,in their opinion, the league are better off under the rfl community board banner rather than barla.

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Post by Lee Marchant Tue Jan 20, 2009 2:38 pm

mentor wrote:Would anyone like to give some clear reasons why,in their opinion, the league are better off under the rfl community board banner rather than barla.

Also, we have a forum here

where the board of management have promised to answer any constructive set of questions or queries into decision making and practices. Surely this would be a good place to start for those that have criticisms, and to see the responses that BARLA make in reply.

It seems odd to me, that given the "hot potato" this subject appears to be, that nobody has yet taken up this opportunity to pose questions directly to the Board of Management.
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Post by Lancs Tue Jan 20, 2009 4:21 pm

I suspect after some time spent banging their heads against the proverbial brick wall, people have not yet taken up the opportunity to questin the Board of Management via this forum due to apathy.

A comprehensive list of 'issues' was submitted to the Board by some Junior and Youth Leagues approximately 18 months ago now. To this date there has been no response to any of the points raised, despite the matter being followed up.

I will do my utmost to obtain the said list and if I can, I will detail it in full on the relevant page and await a response.

As things stand, I believe that the NWC 13-15s will leave Barla and the NWC 8-12s will probably follow soon after. I am not trying to be argumentative here, just stating my opinion and I can confirm that the clubs of those leagues know exactly what they will be voting for.

It is very sad that things have got to such a state but there it is.

As a footnote, it may be worth noting that in the NWC (as an example) there are 79 Open Age teams and 345 Junior and Youth teams, that ratio is almost 4 to 1.
I mention this only as it is MY PERSONAL perception that Barla is almost solely pre-occupied with over 16's, the Open Age in particular.
I believe the ratio of teams and players shown above (which must be similar in other areas) perhaps highlights a major problem that is evidently clearer to some people than others.

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Post by mick doyle Tue Jan 20, 2009 5:37 pm

I was at the meeting in question and I must admit I was under the impression the vote was to drop status to associate members.

People seem to be under the impression that the youth and junior leagues have not approched the Board of Management with our concerns,this is not the case we have following a meeting of all the regional leagues at Hopwood Hall .
A full list of concerns were submitted to the board and as of today not one as been answered and that is over 18 months ago.

Our association has been in dispute with the board for over three seasons.
There as been little or no attempt from the board to resolve the dispute.
With now all three youth and junior leagues in dispute and several district leagues raising concerns as to the direction the Board is taking this once highly respected organisation,what does the BOARD OF MANAGEMENT propose to do to prevent the dis-mantling of BARLA ?

No-one wants BARLA to cease providing for what it was set up to do,but unless the current board take their heads out of the sand and start entering into meaningful dialouge with its committed band of volunteers then I fear for the future of BARLA.

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Post by pandasdad Tue Jan 20, 2009 6:27 pm

Admin wrote: Also, we have a forum here

where the board of management have promised to answer any constructive set of questions or queries into decision making and practices. Surely this would be a good place to start for those that have criticisms, and to see the responses that BARLA make in reply.

It seems odd to me, that given the "hot potato" this subject appears to be, that nobody has yet taken up this opportunity to pose questions directly to the Board of Management.

It seems odd to me that nobody from the Board of Management has taken the opportunity to respond to such a serious issue. Why does the Board of Management require questions to be posed in a particular section of the forum? Is it beneath them to read other sections of the forum and address questions where they are posed?

And what guarantee is there that if these same questions appear in this hallowed section that they are any more likely to be answered than those to which previous posters have referred?

Ultimately, forums are organised for the use and benefit of the users, not the administrators and if a huge gap appears between the aims of those parties, the administrators are left with two choices!

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Post by Sam Armstrong Wed Jan 21, 2009 2:17 am

Admin wrote:
pandasdad wrote:
Even this new forum, which should be recognised as a step forward, seems to ignore the Youth and Junior Leagues in its very layout.

I can comment on this point,

when it was decided how the forum would be set up, there were concerns over u-16 users on an internet message board (which has a private messaging system built in) for obvious reasons.

There will be full coverage of the youth/junior leagues on here, and I haven't settled on the final layout of the forum as yet either.

But I think if we have a forum that is dedicated to youth/junior, it needs to be for the 'grown-ups' who run the teams. In this day where "internet grooming" is all too common, it would be too risky to encourage u-16's to post on such a media, and was a major concern when the idea for the forum was conceived.

Of course, the 'grown ups' who run the teams and who have vetted interests are more than welcome to post on here.

I'm sure you can understand the reasoning behind this.
Genuine question, how will you monitor the ages of the Forum's members if when registering no age/date of birth data is required? How many members already registered are U16? Even if you do have to enter a date of birth how will you go about verifying their age?

Whilst respecting the child protection fears I think it may be impossible or extremely costly to actually police and implement.

You also say that "Of course, the 'grown ups' who run the teams and who have vetted interests are more than welcome to post on here" but, if they are active in Youth & Junior rugby, where do they go to post whilst a decision is made on the "final layout" regarding their age-groups?

So far only Open Age categories have been accomodated ... and even a business ad section has been created before our age-groups ... surely the inclusion of youth and junior age-groups should have been at least equally catered for when the site was launched, and if not, as many believe, a priority over the business ads, certainly on what is intended as an AMATEUR RUGBY forum not seemingly as a bit of an afterthought!
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Post by Lee Marchant Wed Jan 21, 2009 3:27 am

Sam Armstrong wrote:
Genuine question, how will you monitor the ages of the Forum's members if when registering no age/date of birth data is required? How many members already registered are U16? Even if you do have to enter a date of birth how will you go about verifying their age?

Whilst respecting the child protection fears I think it may be impossible or extremely costly to actually police and implement.

You also say that "Of course, the 'grown ups' who run the teams and who have vetted interests are more than welcome to post on here" but, if they are active in Youth & Junior rugby, where do they go to post whilst a decision is made on the "final layout" regarding their age-groups?

So far only Open Age categories have been accomodated ... and even a business ad section has been created before our age-groups ... surely the inclusion of youth and junior age-groups should have been at least equally catered for when the site was launched, and if not, as many believe, a priority over the business ads, certainly on what is intended as an AMATEUR RUGBY forum not seemingly as a bit of an afterthought!

There is no point in having a check box or date of birth entry, as anyone underage who has a usable email address will just lie anyway, it's clearly stated in the terms and conditions (when you complete the registration process), that anyone under the age of 14 who wishes to post should do so under adult supervision. You have to accept this agreement when you join.

As you well know, if any youngsters have an email address and are not supervised whilst on the internet, there is little that can be done to stop them from posting

In my experience in such matters, it is better just to set up the message-board in a manner which will discourage under age posting.

As for ignoring the youth/junior set up, the welfare of the kids is clearly of paramount importance, and this is why it was deemed not suitable to have under age posters on this forum (which has a private messaging system). I'd have thought that someone in your responsible position, would commend that approach?

The forum is only 3 days, and I'm altering the structure today to include a general BARLA chat zone, where you can start new topics about anything you so wish, so the News section can be simply that, and not a free for all.

If there are enough requests for a dedicated area on youth and junior over time, then we can look at implementing one, but lets walk before we start running...
For now, there are plenty of area on here where matters relating to such things can be discussed.

As for the affinity group, (or business pages as you called them) These companies are committed to supporting the clubs, we've already had one kit sponsor offer, and also a commitment of £500 to go into the pockets of two clubs (golf day) and I know for a fact that there is a lot more of this to follow.

Surely by helping the clubs financially , this in turn benefits the youth teams at those clubs?
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Post by Lee Marchant Wed Jan 21, 2009 3:47 am

pandasdad wrote:

It seems odd to me that nobody from the Board of Management has taken the opportunity to respond to such a serious issue. Why does the Board of Management require questions to be posed in a particular section of the forum? Is it beneath them to read other sections of the forum and address questions where they are posed?

And what guarantee is there that if these same questions appear in this hallowed section that they are any more likely to be answered than those to which previous posters have referred?

Ultimately, forums are organised for the use and benefit of the users, not the administrators and if a huge gap appears between the aims of those parties, the administrators are left with two choices!

The idea of having an area to have questions directed at BARLA was mine when we conceived the idea of the forum, the point of this was to have an easy to read constructed area which could then be easily used in the future for reference. Not every single comment or criticism on every thread will be commented on, nor do the board of management have the time to do so.

I was assured that any reasonable question or constructed set of issues would be answered, so I created the "hallowed" area (as you put it) specifically for that purpose.

Of course, this doesn't mean that members of the Board of Management cannot post elsewhere. And I'm sure they will...

But if a response is requested, there is an area specifically for that...
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Post by Sam Armstrong Wed Jan 21, 2009 5:28 am

Admin wrote:As for ignoring the youth/junior set up, the welfare of the kids is clearly of paramount importance, and this is why it was deemed not suitable to have under age posters on this forum (which has a private messaging system). I'd have thought that someone in your responsible position, would commend that approach?
The point being made about the lack of somewhere to post for youth/junior issues was not per se about U16's posting (frankly they rarely do as parents/coaches use these forums and therefore it's probably perceived as uncool to post) but about those of us adults involved in these age groups. If, as I believe your concern is for child welfare and, as you say, you cannot determine who's who or what age users are then why not simply, by default, disable the pm feature except to pm the admin. Users would then need to approach yourselves before it is fully authorised for use and the authorisation could then be discretionary on your own criteria ... not being able to pm would certainly immediately remove the risk of grooming pm's.

admin wrote:If there are enough requests for a dedicated area on youth and junior over time, then we can look at implementing one, but lets walk before we start running...
For now, there are plenty of area on here where matters relating to such things can be discussed.
But why should the youth/junior game with the largest number of players etc have to post in open-age sections and not, like everyone else, have their own area? Are these other areas not equally "learning to walk"???
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Post by Lee Marchant Wed Jan 21, 2009 6:17 am

Sam Armstrong wrote: The point being made about the lack of somewhere to post for youth/junior issues was not per se about U16's posting (frankly they rarely do as parents/coaches use these forums and therefore it's probably perceived as uncool to post) but about those of us adults involved in these age groups. If, as I believe your concern is for child welfare and, as you say, you cannot determine who's who or what age users are then why not simply, by default, disable the pm feature except to pm the admin. Users would then need to approach yourselves before it is fully authorised for use and the authorisation could then be discretionary on your own criteria ... not being able to pm would certainly immediately remove the risk of grooming pm's.

The pm feature is a very useful tool if used properly, and I would be very reluctant to remove the use of it. More to the point, forums which do not have a pm system always degenerate into "FAO's" and threads which are nothing more than a conversation between two people. I have a lot of experience at running forums such as this, and it was for this reason that I was asked to set this up on behalf of BARLA,

now, what is new for me, is not having free reign to run the message-board as I see fit, as the structure and content of it has to be acceptable to BARLA, the board of management and the members, and I have to bear that in mind before I make any major changes to the set up.

As I said, I will restructure the main index today, to make it clearer where each subject matter should go, and I intend to include a general BARLA discussion area, where threads can then be moved to more appropriate areas, once they have become less active.

It is a new site, and I have included a suggestions area, as I'll always try to give the forum members what they want. However, If I decide something is not a good idea, it is probably down to the fact that I have tried it on other forums and found problems with that particular concept. You'll just have to accept my decision on such matters.



Sam Armstrong wrote:But why should the youth/junior game with the largest number of players etc have to post in open-age sections and not, like everyone else, have their own area? Are these other areas not equally "learning to walk"???

You may have noticed that the open age leagues, and club pages have not had any interest as yet, and that is why I only set up the club pages for the NCL as I thought this may be the case, and didn't want to waste time creating untold club forums if they were not going to be used. It may be that I delete all of the individual club pages altogether and just have a general league area, alternatively we could have a club a-z where each club has their own sub-forum(if they ask for it) and this could include all teams that represent that club.

The forum is a couple of days old, give me a little time to set my moderator and administrator team up properly and see how the forum develops.

I envisage that we can create a structure that is satisfactory to everyone(well most! Wink ) .

I don't see the point of people jumping down my throat about the forum structure, and who is and isn't included until we have time to adapt to our userbase.

I would like to think that the whole idea of this website should be greated as a step forward, and to encourage open debate and transparancy with BARLA, (one of the criticisms that I believe have been directed towards it.)

But if people are not willing to participate in the spirit that the forum was set up in, then sadly the concept will fail, and that won't be BARLA's fault.
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Post by pandasdad Wed Jan 21, 2009 9:03 am

Lee, you and Sam have gone down a very detailed path regarding the forum. However, as you mention above transparency is an issue, as is the apparent lack interest by BARLA in the Youth and Junior game. It isn't an intention to criticise you, personally, for the structure of the forum, but that a structure that includes slots for Open Age but none for Youth and Junior is symptomatic of the apathy which appears to exist for that large part of amateur rugby league.

And still I see no comment from any member of the Board, regarding these fundamental issues, so where then is transparency?

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Post by Sam Armstrong Wed Jan 21, 2009 9:52 am

Admin wrote:The forum is a couple of days old, give me a little time to set my moderator and administrator team up properly and see how the forum develops.

I envisage that we can create a structure that is satisfactory to everyone(well most! Wink ) .

I don't see the point of people jumping down my throat about the forum structure, and who is and isn't included until we have time to adapt to our userbase.

Lee,

Next time you see him get your doctor to prescribe you a big bottle of these!!!!
NWC youth 16-18 withdraw from BARLA - Page 2 Take_a_chill_pill
They help the days pass easier when you're a forum admin .... trust me!! drunken
lol!
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Post by Lee Marchant Wed Jan 21, 2009 10:04 am

Sam Armstrong wrote:]

Lee,

Next time you see him get your doctor to prescribe you a big bottle of these!!!!
NWC youth 16-18 withdraw from BARLA - Page 2 Take_a_chill_pill
They help the days pass easier when you're a forum admin .... trust me!! drunken
lol!


I thought I had some, but they were blue, and they kept me up all night.
Cool
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Post by Sam Armstrong Wed Jan 21, 2009 10:07 am

Admin wrote:I thought I had some, but they were blue, and they kept me up all night.Cool
Aren't times hard enough already? scratch
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Post by once a ref Wed Jan 21, 2009 10:19 am

Admin, you started this thread by posting a letter from Hilary Steel in order to promote debate on a reasonably serious subject. Before the debate was very old you deflected it into a discussion on the content and development of the Forum. You also seem to be taking on the role of Spokesperson for BARLA where given the seriousness of this "hot potato" (your phrase) I would have thought someone in authority would have joined in to debate the original subject. Unless of course someone is a ventriloquist.

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Post by Lee Marchant Wed Jan 21, 2009 10:31 am

once a ref wrote:Admin, you started this thread by posting a letter from Hilary Steel in order to promote debate on a reasonably serious subject. Before the debate was very old you deflected it into a discussion on the content and development of the Forum. You also seem to be taking on the role of Spokesperson for BARLA where given the seriousness of this "hot potato" (your phrase) I would have thought someone in authority would have joined in to debate the original subject. Unless of course someone is a ventriloquist.

You may wish to re-read the thread, the point came up as to why the structure of the forum didn't include youth/junior pages, and I could answer those points, as I was involved in those discussions.

I have been very careful to steer clear of making any comments of BARLA procedures or comments (apart from posting up received letters/emails) as that is beyond my remit, I'm just here to ensure the smooth running of the forum and to take care of the technical aspects.

I've explained fully who I am in the "welcome to the forum" thread, and can assure you I have no part in BARLA decision making, and I'm certainly not their spokesperson!

Lee,

Shocked
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Post by pandasdad Wed Jan 21, 2009 6:48 pm

And having had Hilary's letter posted on here, what is the Management Board's response?

Or is this the response of which Hilary got so tired before finally giving up hope of any?

To be honest if the likes of Mick Doyle, Sam Armstrong, Margaret Byrne and Hilary Steel couldn't get formal responses to formal requests, I see precious little chance of the Board of Management giving answers to this forum.

This forum, I would suggest, is "smoke and mirrors". It is an attempt to give the impression of being interested in the grass roots without actually doing anything.

They are welcome to prove me wrong. And it may be the saviour of their organisation!!

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Post by Sam Armstrong Thu Jan 22, 2009 1:21 am

pandasdad wrote:To be honest if the likes of Mick Doyle, Sam Armstrong, Margaret Byrne and Hilary Steel couldn't get formal responses to formal requests, I see precious little chance of the Board of Management giving answers to this forum.
You never know Panda but I have to warn you that our problem with global warming is drastically reducing the chances of this happening ...

NWC youth 16-18 withdraw from BARLA - Page 2 Hell-freezes-over
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Post by Guest Thu Jan 22, 2009 2:28 am

What I don;t understand is why NWC have such apparently huge issues with BARLA when other regional leagues get on fine with both BARLA and RLS.

Is there historical clashes of personality at work here which will never go away whilst those people are involved?

If it is, then that's not in the best interest of the players who afterall we are all here to support - well at least we should be.

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Post by clowesey Thu Jan 22, 2009 5:53 am

stivey wrote:What I don;t understand is why NWC have such apparently huge issues with BARLA when other regional leagues get on fine with both BARLA and RLS.

Do they? Are you sure? I'm not.

stivey wrote:Is there historical clashes of personality at work here which will never go away whilst those people are involved?
So many clashes? So many different leagues? I'd hardly call my involvement historical, 5 years isn't that long in my book.

stivey wrote:If it is, then that's not in the best interest of the players who afterall we are all here to support - well at least we should be.
Which is what we are all interested in.

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Post by mick doyle Thu Jan 22, 2009 6:55 am

stivey wrote:What I don;t understand is why NWC have such apparently huge issues with BARLA when other regional leagues get on fine with both BARLA and RLS.

Is there historical clashes of personality at work here which will never go away whilst those people are involved?

If it is, then that's not in the best interest of the players who afterall we are all here to support - well at least we should be.


Its not just the NWC ,YORKSHIRE juniors also have issues with Barla as do the West Riding and Cumbria and I am led to believe the national Conference also have major issues.NO one from the Board appears to have the strength of conviction to take the bull by the horns and try and solve all our concerns .Indeed the Boards response was to change the constitution and stop associate members from attending and speaking at BARLA meetings speaks volumes dont you think ?

mick doyle
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Registration date : 2009-01-20

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