NWC youth 16-18 withdraw from BARLA

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NWC youth 16-18 withdraw from BARLA

Post by Lee Marchant on Sun Jan 18, 2009 6:50 am

ALL YOUTH & JUNIOR NORTH WEST COUNTIES CLUBS PLEASE SEE THE LETTER SENT FROM HILARY STEEL TO BARLA

MILTON METALS LTD, NORTH WEST COUNTIES YOUTH 16 – 18 AMATEUR RUGBY LEAGUE


16 January 2009

Mr N Hollingsworth
BARLA Secretary
West Yorkshire House
4 New North Parade
HUDDERSFIELD
HD1 5JP

Dear Nigel

Membership of BARLA – rule 4.14

At a recent Management meeting of this League, the members discussed both full membership and associate membership of BARLA.

At the meeting which both Spen Allison and Carole Land attended last
year, the delegates voted by a majority not to be members of BARLA for
the season 2008 – 09. .

Since then, nothing has changed and the committee feels that it must
exercise its rights to act on behalf of the delegates as mandated, to
run this league for the better benefits of all concerned.

This means that for the purpose of clarity, the North West Counties
Youth 16 – 18 ARL will no longer be either full members or associate
members of BARLA.

As League Secretary I hereby give this notice officially and wish to
inform you all that this league will be formally requesting to join the
Other Leagues section of the Community Board.

Kindly, therefore, accept this formal letter as confirmation of this League’s intent to withdraw from BARLA.

Yours sincerely



Hilary Steel
Chair/Secretary

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Re: NWC youth 16-18 withdraw from BARLA

Post by Sam Armstrong on Sun Jan 18, 2009 9:20 am

The two sister youth/junior leagues in the North West Counties catchment areas are fully aware of the letter and the issue has already also been discussed with the clubs forming the 13-15's League to see what action they wish to take. Surely, or should I say hopefully, those in charge will finally wake up and see the damage that is being done by the Board's current negative stance and seeming complete apathy towards the youth/junior game.

These players are the future of BARLA and their leaving at younger age groups will have a whole generation growing up wondering, when they've managed from the age of under 7 to 18 years to survive without it, what benefits there are to being in the Association. scratch

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NWC 16-18s leave BARLA

Post by samsung on Sun Jan 18, 2009 2:25 pm

Good to see democracy reigning supreme in the NWC 16-18s league under the leadership of the Chairperson!!

If the clubs vote to become Associate members - it doesn't follow that the clubs want to pull out of BARLA altogether.

Have the clubs been informed of this latest move by the Chairperson - who always seems to imagine that she is "mandated" to do what the hell she wants to do. Perhaps the clubs should be sent the minutes of the last Management Meeting to see how this very serious decision came about. Perhaps, also, it should be made clear to the clubs BEFORE the next AGM what the "mandate" she has actually includes.

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Re: NWC youth 16-18 withdraw from BARLA

Post by Sam Armstrong on Sun Jan 18, 2009 5:08 pm

Sorry to spoil your case with actual facts Samsung but if you'd bothered to check before you posted you'd have answered most of your own questions and possibly avoided making yourself look rather silly.

The September 08 minutes covering the meeting where the vote took place ARE there in the public domain for all to see in the Minutes section of their website at www.nwcyouth16-18.co.uk and I quote ..
Recent Discussion with BARLA Board Members
As a result of the previous discussion, a proposal from Hindley was made, seconded Thatto Heath Crusaders “that this league should not re-join BARLA this season”. The vote was carried, 15 voting members, 11 for the proposal and 4 against. The delegates were reminded that this subject has been under discussion for the last three meetings and that now the management can continue to manage the league in the best way possible for the teams and players – as mandated many months ago
So to answer your individual statements
samsung wrote:Good to see democracy reigning supreme in the NWC 16-18s league under the leadership of the Chairperson!!
By Democracy do you mean the the Chairperson giving every club the right to vote on the proposal?? Erm ... well yes they did.
samsung wrote:If the clubs vote to become Associate members - it doesn't follow that the clubs want to pull out of BARLA altogether.
According to the above underlined section of the minutes thats EXACTLY what they voted for.
samsung wrote:Perhaps the clubs should be sent the minutes of the last Management Meeting to see how this very serious decision came about. Perhaps, also, it should be made clear to the clubs BEFORE the next AGM what the "mandate" she has actually includes.
The minutes are there for EVERYONE to see ... no secrecy ... and the mandate was clearly that the NWC 16-18's League "should not rejoin BARLA".

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Re: NWC youth 16-18 withdraw from BARLA

Post by samsung on Mon Jan 19, 2009 1:43 am

The vote taken at the September meeting referred to Associate membership - not full withdrawal - or so most of the teams thought.

Full withdrawal is completely different - so don't patronise me or other members of BARLA.

If you were to read my post - I suggested that clubs see the minutes of the MANAGEMENT meeting, where the committee decided to use your "mandate". Not the minutes of the Monthly meeting that are on the website. I do presume that the committee discussed this decision at great length before it was announced at a recent BARLA meeting.

The broad scope of the word "mandate" should be treated a little differently when you are talking of such an action. Mandates normally refer to the "general" running of a league in the everyday sense of things.

I'm not suggesting that the outcome wouldn't have been the same at some point now or in the future - but it shouldn't be presented to the clubs that have teams in your league that the decision has been made by the committee or individuals.

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Re: NWC youth 16-18 withdraw from BARLA

Post by Sam Armstrong on Mon Jan 19, 2009 3:30 am

samsung wrote:... don't patronise me or other members of BARLA.
Firstly, let me say I didn't "patronise" you (where the other members of BARLA come into it I don't know) .... I in fact merely highlighted and gave you the facts to contradict the incorrect statements you made!!

Like many small committees consisting basically of 2 or 3 active members, I believe that the 16-18's don't keep minutes of their Management Meetings, indeed we at the 13-15's, who are fortunate to have 9 active team members meet prior to our club's meeting to discuss pressing issues and these are invariably then put into the public domain as they are raised & discussed with the whole floor and only then publicly minuted. Why do the work twice and create seperate minutes when, in essence, they are the same???

The vote, minuted (and approved as correct at the next meeting) was, as highlighted in my previous post, “that this league should not re-join BARLA this season” and was proposed by one club, seconded by another and then voted on democratically.

No individual Club has been asked to leave BARLA merely that the fixture organising Regional League (who recognise that as Associate Members they receive no correspondence, have no input in development of the game and are not allowed to attend meetings etc) be allowed to, instead, ally themselves with what they feel is a more pro-active and supportive organisation and come under their umbrella for the benefit of their clubs and players.

Your concern over the use of the word mandate is also questionable. Every year at the League's AGM each position on the Committee is able to be contested, and personnel are voted in as the League's representatives not only with your definition of a "mandate" for the
"general" running of a league in the everyday sense of things.
which they do, but more specifically, a mandate also means the authority granted by an electorate to act as it's representative which is exactly what Hilary has done following the vote.

How the above fits into your statement
.. but it shouldn't be presented to the clubs that have teams in your league that the decision has been made by the committee or individuals
when it was minuted that it was a club proposed and not a committee or individual action is, frankly, beyond me.

Please feel free to inform us what you believe the youth & junior Regional League's gain from remaining as members of BARLA as, the growing consensus i our age-groups, seems to be "nothing" other than not upsetting the apple cart for our seemingly open-age obsessed Association! I say again, these players are the future of our sport .... show an interest before it is too late and this once great Association becomes a victim of it's own apathy to the youth of today.

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Re: NWC youth 16-18 withdraw from BARLA

Post by Lee Marchant on Mon Jan 19, 2009 3:43 am

Sam Armstrong wrote:The two sister youth/junior leagues in the North West Counties catchment areas are fully aware of the letter and the issue has already also been discussed with the clubs forming the 13-15's League to see what action they wish to take. Surely, or should I say hopefully, those in charge will finally wake up and see the damage that is being done by the Board's current negative stance and seeming complete apathy towards the youth/junior game.

These players are the future of BARLA and their leaving at younger age groups will have a whole generation growing up wondering, when they've managed from the age of under 7 to 18 years to survive without it, what benefits there are to being in the Association. scratch

Sam,

The whole point of this forum, is to encourage constructive dialogue,

there is a page here , specifically for airing concerns. Can I suggest you, compose a post, outlining why you think damage is being done, why you feel there is a negative stance and complete apathy, and maybe you could suggest some reasonable ideas to address the issues as you see them...

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Re: NWC youth 16-18 withdraw from BARLA

Post by Sam Armstrong on Mon Jan 19, 2009 3:55 am

Have the clubs been informed of this latest move by the Chairperson - who always seems to imagine that she is "mandated" to do what the hell she wants to do.
I'm sorry ... was that "constructive dialogue"??
The Leagues did put their questions and concerns to the board and, indeed, the lack of response from the Board was quoted as one of the reasons for leaving that a former Board member cited in her resignation letter.

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Re: NWC youth 16-18 withdraw from BARLA

Post by Lee Marchant on Mon Jan 19, 2009 4:30 am

Sam Armstrong wrote:
Have the clubs been informed of this latest move by the Chairperson - who always seems to imagine that she is "mandated" to do what the hell she wants to do.
I'm sorry ... was that "constructive dialogue"??
The Leagues did put their questions and concerns to the board and, indeed, the lack of response from the Board was quoted as one of the reasons for leaving that a former Board member cited in her resignation letter.

Yep, point taken and I agree that it was an unnecessary comment, and PM has been sent to the poster,

However, your general demeanour on this thread (and the less than courteous pm I received) is not in keeping with the spirit with which this forum was set up.

If your sole intent is to come on here and to be antagonistic, without following simple courtesies, then the forum can do without you.

I have no idea of the historical arguments and differences between different leagues and memberships, so to that extent, everyone has a clean slate on this forum as I have no axe to grind with anyone.

However, as this message board is OFFICIALLY tied to BARLA, all users have to treat what they post with respect, and behaviour which may be tollerated on independant forums will not be allowed on here for obvious reasons.

The etiquette standards required are fully listed in the forum rules, and I will ensure they are adhered to.

anyway, can we get back to the topic please...

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Re: NWC youth 16-18 withdraw from BARLA

Post by Sam Armstrong on Mon Jan 19, 2009 5:43 am

I apologise if my pm was seemingly taken out of context, it was merely frustration at having spent 30 mins composing and typing only to lose everything but it was a genuine question sent in a frustrated yet lighthearted manner and not meant to cause offence. Embarassed

As for getting back to being on topic .... we were!!! The discussion and subsequent posts were about the 16-18's voting to leave scratch

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Re: NWC youth 16-18 withdraw from BARLA

Post by Steve Manning on Mon Jan 19, 2009 1:40 pm

THIS IS THE EMAIL THAT LOL LOWE THE CHAIRMAN OF WIGAN ST JUDES
SENT TO HILARY STEEL FOLLOWING THE 16-18'S DECISION FOR WITHDRAWAL FROM
BARLA


SENT : SUNDAY, JANUARY 18, 2009 6:18 PM

SUBJECT : WITHDRAWAL FROM BARLA


---

DEAR
MISS STEEL

ST JUDES ARLFC REMAINS FULL MEMBERS OF BARLA AT ALL AGES AND
YOUR MEMBERS VOTED TO BE ASSOCIATE MEMBERS OF BARLA AS YOU AND YOUR CRONIES SEEM TO DIFFER FROM WHAT WAS AGREED YOUR LEAGUE WILL NOT BE AFFORDED THE USE OF OUR CLUB FOR YOUR MEETINGS"


LOL LOWE

CHAIRMAN

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Re: NWC youth 16-18 withdraw from BARLA

Post by Sam Armstrong on Mon Jan 19, 2009 10:21 pm

Everyone has the right to decide whether they agree or disagree with the League's decision but agree or not it was democratically voted for and recorded as such.

Because the vote didn't go your way is no excuse for petulance and petty personal name calling. However, at the end of the day, I'm quite sure there are plenty of other clubs who will appreciate the bar takings of 70/80 people on a usually quiet Wednesday night .... surely this is simply cutting off your nose to spite your face in these economically difficult times??

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Re: NWC youth 16-18 withdraw from BARLA

Post by Steve Manning on Tue Jan 20, 2009 1:28 am

ATTENTION THE VIEWS OF LOL LOWE

THE VIEWS OF LOL LOWE THE CHAIRMAN OF WIGAN ST JUDES IN RELATION TO THE EMAIL SENT TO HILARY STEEL FOLLOWING THE WITHDRAWAL OF THE 16-18 NORTH WEST COUNTIES LEAGUE FROM BARLA ARE LOL LOWE’S OWN PERSONAL VIEWS


STEVE MANNING

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Re: NWC youth 16-18 withdraw from BARLA

Post by Big Bad Bri on Tue Jan 20, 2009 2:06 am

I wasn't at the meeting, but have spoken to people that were there

they thought that they were voting to keep the status quo, and to remain associate.

I'm not saying you wouldn't have got the decison you wanted, but it looks like people were duped into voting for something that wasn't clearly explained to them.

If Hillary and yourself carry on like this in the future, you may find yourselfs without much support. People don't like having the wool pulled over their eyes

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Re: NWC youth 16-18 withdraw from BARLA

Post by pandasdad on Tue Jan 20, 2009 10:43 am

Having been at the NWC meeting last Wednesday, I was surprised by the withdrawal from BARLA on the following Sunday. That's not to say, though, that I'm against it.

The criticism of BARLA for some years now has been that it has been totally Open Age oriented and while there have been Junior/Youth members of the Board of Management, they have had little or no involvement with Junior/Youth matters outside of that role. That may or may not be the case now, but in view of the fact that senior NWC reps like Hilary and Sam appear to believe it to be so, means that, at the very least, communication has been lacking. In particular, looking back on the minutes of the meeting in which Hilary was given a mandate by the clubs, there were numerous examples of correspondence to BARLA Management Board members going unanswered and not even a note of explanation or apology. Hardly a sign of interest and encouragement to those who dedicate many hours to the development of the game to the benefit of both Junior/Youth and Open Age.

Even this new forum, which should be recognised as a step forward, seems to ignore the Youth and Junior Leagues in its very layout.

The U16s of the club to which I belong played in a National Cup match on Sunday and while the results have been posted on this forum, the BARLA website still shows the last matches having been played in May 2008, the fixtures for this year never having been shown on the site at all, so far. A relatively simple issue to rectify, but from what I can gather, a symptom of the malaise which appears to be at the core of the complaints about the relationship of BARLA and its erstwhile members.

It strikes me that it's time that some of the people involved forgot about grand titles and got around the table, at a neutral and central venue, to discuss the issues openly, perhaps under the scrutiny of a Chairperson who has no direct involvement. What's Richard Lewis doing next weekend?

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Re: NWC youth 16-18 withdraw from BARLA

Post by pandasdad on Tue Jan 20, 2009 10:53 am

Moving to the issue of agreement or otherwise with the decision, I would agree with Sam that the Judes chairman has reacted in an unusual manner, given that the meetings provide some additional revenue for the club, but still further, does that mean that he is withdrawing his teams form the League? I should hope not, but knee jerk reactions should be avoided, because that is the implication.

Furthermore, I note that there is now a statement that the views are his personal views and I am now unclear as to which they are because even that note was from the Chairman of Wigan St Judes!

The requirement for NWC 16s to 18s to convene elsewhere has nevertheless been taken seriously since I have read today that future meetings are to be held at St Pats.

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Re: NWC youth 16-18 withdraw from BARLA

Post by Lee Marchant on Tue Jan 20, 2009 11:21 am

pandasdad wrote:
Even this new forum, which should be recognised as a step forward, seems to ignore the Youth and Junior Leagues in its very layout.


I can comment on this point,

when it was decided how the forum would be set up, there were concerns over u-16 users on an internet message board (which has a private messaging system built in) for obvious reasons.

There will be full coverage of the youth/junior leagues on here, and I haven't settled on the final layout of the forum as yet either.

But I think if we have a forum that is dedicated to youth/junior, it needs to be for the 'grown-ups' who run the teams. In this day where "internet grooming" is all too common, it would be too risky to encourage u-16's to post on such a media, and was a major concern when the idea for the forum was conceived.

Of course, the 'grown ups' who run the teams and who have vetted interests are more than welcome to post on here.

I'm sure you can understand the reasoning behind this.

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Re: NWC youth 16-18 withdraw from BARLA

Post by once a ref on Tue Jan 20, 2009 11:47 am

Mr Manning, as an experienced "PRO & Media Manager" you should know better than post a personal E-Mail on an open Forum. If the unhappy St Judes rep (unhappy because he lost a vote?) had wished his comment made available to the public then surely he would have brought it to our attention. Most people who spit their dummies out like to do it in secret, you have removed the courtesy. Good PRO what?
His Club will be delighted with the washing now on the line.

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Re: NWC youth 16-18 withdraw from BARLA

Post by Lee Marchant on Tue Jan 20, 2009 11:50 am

once a ref wrote:Mr Manning, as an experienced "PRO & Media Manager" you should know better than post a personal E-Mail on an open Forum. If the unhappy St Judes rep (unhappy because he lost a vote?) had wished his comment made available to the public then surely he would have brought it to our attention. Most people who spit their dummies out like to do it in secret, you have removed the courtesy. Good PRO what?
His Club will be delighted with the washing now on the line.

I would assume it was posted with permission.

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Re: NWC youth 16-18 withdraw from BARLA

Post by mentor on Tue Jan 20, 2009 2:27 pm

Would anyone like to give some clear reasons why,in their opinion, the league are better off under the rfl community board banner rather than barla.

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Re: NWC youth 16-18 withdraw from BARLA

Post by Lee Marchant on Tue Jan 20, 2009 2:38 pm

mentor wrote:Would anyone like to give some clear reasons why,in their opinion, the league are better off under the rfl community board banner rather than barla.

Also, we have a forum here

where the board of management have promised to answer any constructive set of questions or queries into decision making and practices. Surely this would be a good place to start for those that have criticisms, and to see the responses that BARLA make in reply.

It seems odd to me, that given the "hot potato" this subject appears to be, that nobody has yet taken up this opportunity to pose questions directly to the Board of Management.

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Re: NWC youth 16-18 withdraw from BARLA

Post by Lancs on Tue Jan 20, 2009 4:21 pm

I suspect after some time spent banging their heads against the proverbial brick wall, people have not yet taken up the opportunity to questin the Board of Management via this forum due to apathy.

A comprehensive list of 'issues' was submitted to the Board by some Junior and Youth Leagues approximately 18 months ago now. To this date there has been no response to any of the points raised, despite the matter being followed up.

I will do my utmost to obtain the said list and if I can, I will detail it in full on the relevant page and await a response.

As things stand, I believe that the NWC 13-15s will leave Barla and the NWC 8-12s will probably follow soon after. I am not trying to be argumentative here, just stating my opinion and I can confirm that the clubs of those leagues know exactly what they will be voting for.

It is very sad that things have got to such a state but there it is.

As a footnote, it may be worth noting that in the NWC (as an example) there are 79 Open Age teams and 345 Junior and Youth teams, that ratio is almost 4 to 1.
I mention this only as it is MY PERSONAL perception that Barla is almost solely pre-occupied with over 16's, the Open Age in particular.
I believe the ratio of teams and players shown above (which must be similar in other areas) perhaps highlights a major problem that is evidently clearer to some people than others.

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Re: NWC youth 16-18 withdraw from BARLA

Post by mick doyle on Tue Jan 20, 2009 5:37 pm

I was at the meeting in question and I must admit I was under the impression the vote was to drop status to associate members.

People seem to be under the impression that the youth and junior leagues have not approched the Board of Management with our concerns,this is not the case we have following a meeting of all the regional leagues at Hopwood Hall .
A full list of concerns were submitted to the board and as of today not one as been answered and that is over 18 months ago.

Our association has been in dispute with the board for over three seasons.
There as been little or no attempt from the board to resolve the dispute.
With now all three youth and junior leagues in dispute and several district leagues raising concerns as to the direction the Board is taking this once highly respected organisation,what does the BOARD OF MANAGEMENT propose to do to prevent the dis-mantling of BARLA ?

No-one wants BARLA to cease providing for what it was set up to do,but unless the current board take their heads out of the sand and start entering into meaningful dialouge with its committed band of volunteers then I fear for the future of BARLA.

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Re: NWC youth 16-18 withdraw from BARLA

Post by pandasdad on Tue Jan 20, 2009 6:27 pm

Admin wrote: Also, we have a forum here

where the board of management have promised to answer any constructive set of questions or queries into decision making and practices. Surely this would be a good place to start for those that have criticisms, and to see the responses that BARLA make in reply.

It seems odd to me, that given the "hot potato" this subject appears to be, that nobody has yet taken up this opportunity to pose questions directly to the Board of Management.

It seems odd to me that nobody from the Board of Management has taken the opportunity to respond to such a serious issue. Why does the Board of Management require questions to be posed in a particular section of the forum? Is it beneath them to read other sections of the forum and address questions where they are posed?

And what guarantee is there that if these same questions appear in this hallowed section that they are any more likely to be answered than those to which previous posters have referred?

Ultimately, forums are organised for the use and benefit of the users, not the administrators and if a huge gap appears between the aims of those parties, the administrators are left with two choices!

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Re: NWC youth 16-18 withdraw from BARLA

Post by Sam Armstrong on Wed Jan 21, 2009 2:17 am

Admin wrote:
pandasdad wrote:
Even this new forum, which should be recognised as a step forward, seems to ignore the Youth and Junior Leagues in its very layout.

I can comment on this point,

when it was decided how the forum would be set up, there were concerns over u-16 users on an internet message board (which has a private messaging system built in) for obvious reasons.

There will be full coverage of the youth/junior leagues on here, and I haven't settled on the final layout of the forum as yet either.

But I think if we have a forum that is dedicated to youth/junior, it needs to be for the 'grown-ups' who run the teams. In this day where "internet grooming" is all too common, it would be too risky to encourage u-16's to post on such a media, and was a major concern when the idea for the forum was conceived.

Of course, the 'grown ups' who run the teams and who have vetted interests are more than welcome to post on here.

I'm sure you can understand the reasoning behind this.
Genuine question, how will you monitor the ages of the Forum's members if when registering no age/date of birth data is required? How many members already registered are U16? Even if you do have to enter a date of birth how will you go about verifying their age?

Whilst respecting the child protection fears I think it may be impossible or extremely costly to actually police and implement.

You also say that "Of course, the 'grown ups' who run the teams and who have vetted interests are more than welcome to post on here" but, if they are active in Youth & Junior rugby, where do they go to post whilst a decision is made on the "final layout" regarding their age-groups?

So far only Open Age categories have been accomodated ... and even a business ad section has been created before our age-groups ... surely the inclusion of youth and junior age-groups should have been at least equally catered for when the site was launched, and if not, as many believe, a priority over the business ads, certainly on what is intended as an AMATEUR RUGBY forum not seemingly as a bit of an afterthought!

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Re: NWC youth 16-18 withdraw from BARLA

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