16-18 NW Counties Youth (Sorry) RFL Associate League Meeting

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16-18 NW Counties Youth (Sorry) RFL Associate League Meeting

Post by DiDeDi on Fri Feb 13, 2009 7:33 am

Well thanks to Sams information this meeting was held on Wednesday of this week and not next Wednesday as I was led to believe.
As the minutes for that meeting may differ from what really went on is there anybody out there who attended brave enough to tell all what really happened what was said and who was ther at the meeting.
I can't believe the smug RFL were not there telling you the clubs the benefits that could be cjanged if you signed the form and to ignore the BARLA Chairmans advice.
If it means using a different name than your own I would think everyone would respect that, so please someone tell all

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Re: 16-18 NW Counties Youth (Sorry) RFL Associate League Meeting

Post by Sam Armstrong on Sat Feb 14, 2009 2:13 am

DiDeDi wrote:... As the minutes for that meeting may differ from what really went on is there anybody out there who attended brave enough to tell all what really happened what was said ...
The minutes are posted and approval sought that they are an accurate and true reflection at the following Month's meeting ... maybe you need to see whether they are approved before casting aspersions on the integrity of that League??

DiDeDi wrote:and who was ther at the meeting.
It lists who was NOT present, I think it is therefore safe to assume that all other teams were present ... every club is expected to attend, the same as in our 13-15's League.

DiDeDi wrote:I can't believe the smug RFL were not there telling you the clubs the benefits that could be cjanged if you signed the form and to ignore the BARLA Chairmans advice.
Smug??? Why the stupid and petty name-calling? It adds nothing to your argument other than show a clear bias!! I'm sure if the Club's wished to discuss the agreement with the RFL they are either capable individually or as a combined request to the League to facilitate an invitation and presentation.

DiDeDi wrote:If it means using a different name than your own I would think everyone would respect that, so please someone tell all
You make it sound like the League is run as some sort of Police State with people scared to air their opinions ..... we are talking about adults discussing issues in an open manner.

To the best of my knowledge no-one who has expressed an opinion contrary to that of the League has ever been knee-capped, "visited" or found a horse's head on their pillow so why the need for all the cloak and dagger aliases? Rolling Eyes

I have more respect for those that have the courage of their convictions and are therefore not afraid to put their name forward ... certainly more respect for those than someone hiding and sniping behind a nom de plume ... eh DiDeDi??? Suspect
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Re: 16-18 NW Counties Youth (Sorry) RFL Associate League Meeting

Post by pandasdad on Sun Feb 15, 2009 6:25 pm

I attended the meeting and can categorically state that BARLA was so uppermost in the minds of the attendees that it wasn't even mentioned!

To be honest, I was amazed. I felt sure that it would be a long meeting - I said my good-byes to my wife and my child before I left home, not being quite sure when I would see them again. And was home by 9:30!

Oh, and having read Sam's comments again, my name's Kevin and I'm from Blackbrook, but my comments do not in any way represent those of the club - just in case Mr Swift is reading them - which I doubt he is, since the Board of Management haven't, to the best of my knowledge, responded to anything on this forum so far!

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Re: 16-18 NW Counties Youth (Sorry) RFL Associate League Meeting

Post by Steve Hulme on Wed Feb 25, 2009 4:16 am

DiDeDi wrote:Well thanks to Sams information this meeting was held on Wednesday of this week and not next Wednesday as I was led to believe.
As the minutes for that meeting may differ from what really went on is there anybody out there who attended brave enough to tell all what really happened what was said and who was ther at the meeting.
I can't believe the smug RFL were not there telling you the clubs the benefits that could be cjanged if you signed the form and to ignore the BARLA Chairmans advice.
If it means using a different name than your own I would think everyone would respect that, so please someone tell all

In the last 7years, in which my Son has been involved with Rugby within the North West Counties league we have seen the league grow from strength to Strength. The hard work the individuals do on the commitee they do for the love of the game and the benefit of the young kids. I have attended many meetings over the last 7years and not once can I honestly say What Barla have done for any of its members who are under 16 years of age.However I have a list as long as someone elses arm( as mine arent very long) what the volunteers who run this league have achieved. Take a survey of the kids who make up these leagues and they will also not have a clue what Barla actually do or who they actually are.And if they are under 14 years of age wont be able to post their comments on here either???
If the people who make the decisions at Barla would pop their heads out from under the boardroom table and actually look at what has been achieved with little or no input from themselves , and on occasions damn right obstructiveness . Then they will see the volunteers are simply frustrated and totally driven to make the best for our kids and ultimatley the future of the modern rugby. These volunteers will ensure that the kids and their playing leagues gets the best deal as they have done in recent years. If Barla cannot match the enthusiasm and drive these people have for junior rugby, then do not critise them for wanting better and if other organisations provide greater resource and support ,well let it be.

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Re: 16-18 NW Counties Youth (Sorry) RFL Associate League Meeting

Post by Paul Stephenson on Wed Feb 25, 2009 7:38 am

Steve

Administrator hat off.

Speaking as one of those volunteers in the game, I'd ask the question why can't we have both BARLA and the RFL working for us, why should we be driven to choose one over the other?

Up until recently we did have both options despite the mud-slinging (at least in my area we did).

Now it seems my own area has been dragged into a conflict that to me personally was not required and needs stopping as its damaged the game and continues to damage it more.

Even at the meeting of all leagues (which I thought was the common way forward) we find some leagues who have voting powers greater than others (who have none) and areas where RFL employees represent volunteers of the game and they can vote individually acting on volunteers behalf (what a conflict that could be). Some volunteers can be trusted to wear two hats (and do) whilst others are refused the opportunity to do the same - though how morally that can happen is beyond me given what some who can represent at that table already, a foot in "both camps" as it where.

One only has to look at what has gone on in Scotland these past few weeks to see how the volunteers there have walked away almost on mass after what they saw as interference by the RFL -I shudder to think what would happen if a tradional league did the same and there are a number of stalwarts already discussing whether its time they personally did just that - lets hope not too many of them do.

BARLA quite rightly as you say do need to respond, but likewise the RFL needs to behave too. For example asking leagues to sign agreements which by their very nature will mean leagues who do not will receive a lesser service or miss out on things entirely just adds fuel to the fire in my personal opinion and surely is not what Genesis was designed to do.

In my eyes both sides are as bad as each other in their own little ways and its time someone banged their heads together and put a stop to it.

Sam Armstrong said to me only this week that I seem to be in a half empty glass frame of mind these days, he's right I am, but six months ago I was very much looking at a full glass.

I am saddened by what those "in charge" at all levels have done to our game this last 12 months, I fear more what they are planning to do next.
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Re: 16-18 NW Counties Youth (Sorry) RFL Associate League Meeting

Post by peter moran on Wed Feb 25, 2009 12:40 pm

Excellent post Paul

Most of us are pure volunteers and the question you post is direct to the point.In fact both organisations have an obligation to work with each other or they do a dis-service to the game itself. No-one need though choose one over another.

What went wrong after Genesis? RFL changed its structure in accordance with the recommendations , but Barla did not, nor of course did it have to. The result though has been a structure that has largely been unable to respond to the needs of the Playing Leagues,especially at Youth and Junior levels. Had it embraced a root and branches overhaul of it's constitutional make up in favour of more recognition of what the playing leagues bring to the table then 1) Barla would rightly have continued to claim governance( control) over grassroots nationwide and 2) the game would not have needed the Forums launched by RFL to secure wider and more meaningful dialogue with those who really count- the playing leagues. Sadly this position may now be irreversible.

The only vote that isn't shared by all at these meetings is that of who represents at the Community Board.That's got to be right hasn't it when those who continue to be able to vote at Barla have their democratic wishes expressed there? And anyway I am sure the feelings of these forums will be for consensus rather than votes. My own League ( NCL )is particularly keen to be a bigger voice when the Open Age starts next month.

From a personal point of view I can't wait for the day when a rep from the Youth and Juniors ,from the Other Leagues(Open Age) and ,yes Barla itself , all sit at the Community Board and actually engage in the decision making processes, bringing with them massive credibility as a consequence of their rep credentials. Make my job a darned sight easier I can tell you!

I don't think that RFL employees sit happily with a rep position and want to get rid of any such role as soon as they can. David Lowe for instance at NCL no longer votes and the Forums are designed so that elected reps will come to the Community Board instead of , for instance Neil Wood or Gary Tasker ( whose advice will of course continue to be available)

Scotland is a seperate issue .Well organised Leagues have absolutely no fear of interference.If there is any, just walk away.If you are right and share the support of your clubs ,what could be the problem.? The affiliation offer is simply that., an offert to share a common vision. Who in their right mind would reject an offer like that with no strings attached and the opportunity again to walk away from it if it's not right for you? There seems to be too much fear and suspicion in this game, and perhaps from some administrators not enough confidence in themselves.

Yes there is a need to talk .But by people who can carry the day for those they represent without having to run back to committees and then possibly having to backtrack.That I am afraid has been a feature of Barla over the years-I speak as a veteran on such issues. Again, back to Genesis!

Be optimistic. Treat your glass as half full rather than half empty ,and go back to the Bar for a top-up. I have always said that the time it gets totally out of order is when a game is cancelled or a kid does'n't get to play because of ' off the park ' antics . It's nowhere near that bad yet ,and it is in fact I believe going to get much better if those ' in charge' as you put it do what they are there for, to represent their members in their pursuit of enjoying this game.

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Re: 16-18 NW Counties Youth (Sorry) RFL Associate League Meeting

Post by Paul Stephenson on Thu Feb 26, 2009 1:47 am

Peter thanks for your comments, my particular issue with the voting is that it seems some are allowed to wear two hats and be elected and vote whilst others are not.

I thought we was on common ground when we met at these meetings and I have to admit I find it potentially insulting and definately farsical that someone can chair one league as a full member and chair another as a non member and represent the table because of the latter. Someone who represents ONLY a full BARLA member cannot (nor can they vote on who they would like to represent them).

I've already made the flippant remark that if we pull our U8's away from our association and make them associate members I could for example on those rules be proposed and have a vote too (is that not bordering on making a joke of the process)?

That person is either representing the table or they are representaing the "table minus the full BARLA members" because how can anyone truly represent me if I did not have a choice in the matter ?

I think some common sense is missing from the decision to effectively exclude full members - do we not keep hearing how BARLA exluding the associate members was wrong - so why when the same mistake appears to have been made is this not wrong too?

I hope its an oversite and not another tit-4-tat
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Re: 16-18 NW Counties Youth (Sorry) RFL Associate League Meeting

Post by Paul Stephenson on Thu Feb 26, 2009 2:01 am

Sorry Peter I neglected to respond to your comment on the partnership agreements.

My point is they are not as innocent as they may seem or are being portrayed and would ask the question

o What was the need to bring them out now?
o Why did the words PRIORITY ACCESS need to be included for any other reason than enticement?
o If it was enticement - enticement away from what exactly?
o Why did the word PRIMACY need to be used other than for establishing that the RFL becomes the controlling body of any who sign?

Its says your constitution will not be affected by signing these agreements, but is that not necessarily true, what if your constitution differs or is in conflict in anyway with any of the following (none of which appear in the examples given on the FAQ page)

o RFL Memorandum
o Articles of Association
o Bye-Laws
o Operational Rules

because you've just signed up to them (or potentially unconstitutionally signed up to them).

Additionally what happens if an RFL Memorandum comes out which states seomthing that makes your very constitution unconstitutional?

A good example would be "scrap all transfer rules".

What would happen then?

I think the idea of partnerships are a good one, indeed I am in the process of producing some now for things withion our own league, but the words PRIORITY ACCESS and PRIMACY are in my opinion not required unless some other motive is behind them.

Maybe a good explanation is there but I just can't see it?
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Re: 16-18 NW Counties Youth (Sorry) RFL Associate League Meeting

Post by Steve Hulme on Thu Feb 26, 2009 10:55 am

Great Posts guys and very in-depth . What in heavens does all that mean???
All im asking is what benefits do the Youth & Junior leagues get from being members of Barla??

I hope the list exceeds the lengths of your last posts.

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Re: 16-18 NW Counties Youth (Sorry) RFL Associate League Meeting

Post by Steve Hulme on Thu Feb 26, 2009 11:00 am

Steve Hulme wrote:Great Posts guys and very in-depth . What in heavens does all that mean???
All im asking is what benefits do the Youth & Junior leagues get from being members of Barla??

I hope the list exceeds the lengths of your last posts.

Sorry guys just found an entire topic on the subject .(not too use to these forums as i don't use them much Laughing Cool ) thanks for your insight into whats going down.

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Re: 16-18 NW Counties Youth (Sorry) RFL Associate League Meeting

Post by peter moran on Fri Feb 27, 2009 6:44 pm

Apologies for getting a touch heavy Steve,but I hope it makes a decent read!

Paul-

Voting.

Simple issue .If a League is a full member at Barla, then its democratic voice is represented by Barla who will nominate the rep at Community Board. From today it is John Pattinson. Welcome John. If it cannot vote for a rep then it takes the ' Other leagues' route and votes for a rep direct to the Board. That rep will bring forward the views from the forum,whether or not they have a democratic voice elsewhere. That can sometimes mean 'twice heard' but that's much better than not heard at all, especially for the kids. Who actually brings those views forward is not an issue - they wear only their forum hat for that single purpose- no-one else's.

The Agreements. Again simple issue. Priority means just that - you get first call in a situation of limited resources . That is the case in all walks of life. Take it or leave it -without commitment either way.

Primacy. If you join the local golf club you agree to keep their rules .If you do not like them, you leave! Its the same under this agreement.I'll flip your question. What would you do if you were Yorkshire Juniors and had so many Barla decisions against you that you had no option but to withdraw,or NCL who follow their own constitution on a fundamental issue only to have it overturned by Barla ( relegation of West Hull for non fulfilment of a fixture) . No brainer. They both walked out of Barla .What is the difference ?
The point I make is that all Leagues are sovereign souls guided by their Committees who will do it right by their members. Do what you think is right.

On a personal note Paul , we have not met but my contacts tell me you and yours are doing massive work for the game 40 miles east of the rest of all of us ( Hull ) but that you also like a good debate. Rather than clog up this site I hope we can develop the dialogue elsewhere .

Let us keep the channels free for our leaders who seem yet to make a foray, quite frankly,anywhere at all on this, their own, website . Can you get them moving please Lee? The traffic seems totally one way at present.Their silence on what is yet a lukewarm site is quite depressing, and is certainly giving no comfort to the troops.... as well as confirming to any opponents that they really do not have a clue.

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